The James-Younger Gang vs. The Chicago Outfit: The Edges

Alright, now that that I've all the stats for both groups, lets see who got the edges.

Before I begin, I just wanted to let you know that I swapped out two of Jesse's weapons. The Model 1876 has been replaced with the model 1873. As cool as the 1876 is, I think that the 1873 would be a more common weapon for the gang. I also swapped out shotguns, mostly because there's more details available about the Colt then there is the Remington.

Here's how the two gangs will be graded.

Long Range Weapons: /20

Mid-Range Weapons: /15

Short Range Weapons: /15

Special Weapons: /10

Explosive Weapons: /10

Tactics: /20

Training: /15

Morale/Motivation: /15

Combat History: /10

Leadership: /15

The Weapons

Long Range- Winchester Rifle: Model 1873 vs. Thompson Submachine Gun 

The model 1873 was a fantastic gun in its day (and it still is), but its outmatched here. When the Outfit actually takes the time to aim their Thompsons, things aren't going to turn out well for Jesse. The firepower just a few Thompsons are capable of putting out will be devastating. Even if the gun doesn't actually hit its target, the sheer number of bullets flying through the air, will make it difficult for the J-Y Gang to hit theirs. The Thompson also has larger rounds (.45 compared to the .40-.44) than the Winchester. It will not only tear through the J-Y Gang, but any poor cover they decide to use. The Winchester does have a few advantages however; its the more accurate of two guns, and it is also has the higher muzzle velocity. (1,100 fps, to 920 fps), which helps slightly to make up for the smaller caliber bullets. The Winchester will be at its best in Jesse's initial ambush, in which they can use their Winchester's accuracy, and their marksmanship skills to inflict some damage on the Outfit. Once the shock of the ambush fades, Capone's boys would close the distance, where could really let loose with their Thompsons. It would be at this point the superior firepower of the Thompson, and the skill Capone's men have at using them, would overwhelm the Winchester.

In the end, this is pretty easy to decide. The Thompson holds way more bullets, is faster to reload, and with so may bullets flying through the air, its going to get more kills.

Edge:  The Chicago Outfit

              

Mid-Range- Colt .45 Single Action Army Revolver vs. Colt M1911 Pistol  

 One of the greatest revolvers ever produced, going up against one of the greatest pistols ever produced, this is going to be one hell of a comparison. The two guns are very similar in many ways. They're both .45 caliber, which means they're going to hit with roughly the same amount of force, although the revolver has a slightly faster muzzle velocity (830 fps to 960 fps), due to its longer barrel. The Colt has a higher effective range as well. Accuracy is the tricky thing, on one hand the J-Y Gang probably has more has more experience with their revolvers, whereas for the Oufit, I feel they're pistol is more of a back-up weapon. However, the pistol has a more modern design, and is accurate up to the full extent of its range, whereas the revolver  peters out more in terms of accuracy to its full range, until you would probably be getting your most accurate shots roughly within the range of the pistol. The revolver also has some design flaws; the cartridges were not always of the best quality, causing the gun to jam (although I don't think that this would be a very common occurrence, or else people would've stopped using it). Also reloading the revolver is clumsy and and time consuming, whereas the pistol can be reloaded much faster and smoother. Both have roughly the same number of shots (the pistol's one shot advantage isn't going to make much of a difference in this fight). As far as speed is concerned, the pistol is semi-auto, but the J-Y Gang were probably be pretty quick shots, and in skilled hands, the Colt SAA can be deadly fast. The Colt M1911 will be further hampered in speed by its bulkier design

Overall a very tough edge to give, but I'm giving it to the Colt M1911, for its superior design, reliability, and it managing to roughly match the SAA in accuracy.

Edge: The Chicago Outfit.

                                

Short Range- Colt Model 1878 Shotgun vs.Winchester Model 1897 Shotgun 

Both of these shotguns are 12-gauge, so they are both going to hit with the same amount of power. The Colt may actually have a very slight edge in terms of power, as it can fire two 12-gauge shells at once. But that's about the only edge that the Colt has. The pump action design of the Winchester is better in every way, allowing for a faster rate of fire, and better accuracy. Also, it can hold six rounds, as opposed to the Colt's two, and reloading is much smoother.

Edge: The Chicago Outfit

      

Special Weapons-  Bowie Knife vs. Baseball Bat  

This is another really tough weapon edge to give. Both are up-close weapons, which means that they're not going to see much use in this gunfight. The bat has the advantage of length, over the Bowie, which will give it a little more versatility it this fight. It will be able to keep the Bowie at a distance, and is long enough that it could actually block strikes from the knife, if used properly. The Bowie may be better at actually killing though; the sheer size of the knife is going to leave wounds that will probably kill outright, or will at least kill from blood loss. The bat can kill pretty easily as well, but if is doesn't hit the right spot (like the head or the neck), it will only cripple, not kill. Neither side is going to use these weapons with much skill. The baseball bat doesn't require skill to use, and the Outfit probably usually  chose smaller and more concealable hand-to-hand combat weapons over the bat. As for the Bowie, the J-Y Gang would have used it as a utility tool first, and as weapon rarely. They would not have been master knife fighters, and none of them posses the skill to throw it.

In the end, it comes down to which weapon is more efficient to carry around in a gunfight. The Bowie is still small enough that it can be tucked away in one of the outlaw's coats when the bullets start flying. Capone's men on the other hand, will have to drop the bat to get a good aim with whatever gun they're carrying, so the edge goes to the Bowie.                        

Edge: The James-Younger Gang

Explosive Weapons- Dynamite vs. Mk.II Hand Grenade

In terms of sheer explosive power, the dynamite has the greater blast radius than the grenade, but this comes at a price. Dynamite is notoriously unstable; although one well placed bundle of it will be able to take out most of Capone's gang with one blast, they same thing can be said for Jesse's gang. Its hard to place your faith in a weapon that could possibly kill your entire group if you dropped it hard enough. The dynamite also doesn't produce any shrapnel, while the grenade does. This gives the grenade an overall greater killing radius than the dynamite. The grenade is easier to operate as well; pulling a pin is much faster, and simpler, than lighting a fuse.

Edge: The Chicago Outfit            

 

The X-Factors/ Intangibles

Tactics- Both gangs have surprisingly similar quick-strike/raid tactics. Jesse's are honed through years of fighting in the Civil War, and the many robberies that followed after, while Capone's come from the many attacks his gang orchestrated on his rivals, and other targets. With their tactics being so similar, I'm doubting how affective they'll be on each other. Both gangs will want to hit as hard, and as fast as they can, and catch the other off guard. When this happens, it becomes a matter of which gang will break first. This is tough to decide; Capone has the better weaponry for this kind of attack, but the J-Y Gang has the better discipline. The J-Y Gang does have on other edge though, they have a willingness to retreat, reorganize and attack again. As former guerrillas, this tactic is practically burned into their brain. They can wear the Outfit down with repeated strikes. I'm guessing that the Outfit would also be willing to retreat if things got tough, as their attacks were designed to be brief and brutal, but they won't have the same organization that the J-Y Gang would.

Edge: The James-Younger Gang  

Training- This is a pretty easy edge to decide. The J-Y Gang's training they picked up with Quantrill is far more formal than that of the Outfit. They would have learned discipline, how to operate as a unit, and how to follow orders. This is going to help them greatly with planning, and executing an ambush, and also retreating and regrouping when they needed to. The little extra- training that some members picked up in the Confederate Army won't hurt either. The only thing they have to worry about is the Gang's undisciplined "add-ons", from after the North Field raid. This still gives them a tremendous advantage over the Outfit though; they learned how to be tough on the streets, but that's mostly it.

Edge: The James Younger Gang

Morale Motivation- This is another tricky one. Both gangs are held together by a tight loyalty; the J-Y Gang to each other, and the Outfit to Capone. Unfortunately, its hard to judge things like loyalty. The J-Y Gang does seem to have some division though. The many groups of families in the gang seem to have stuck closer to each other than to the rest of the gang. For example, after the Northfield Raid, the James and Younger sections of the gang split, possibly over Jesse wanting to kill one of the injured Younger boys. If the Gang splits up when the fighting gets tough, things won't turn out good. Divided, they can't stand up to Capone's superior weaponry. But the gang still has the bond foraged out of fighting in the Civil War together, and I believe them splitting up would be rare. The Outfit probably had too much  respect and fear for Capone to  abandon him during a fight, but given their lack of training, who knows. As for the final two aspects of this category (hated of Union/ code of silence), I think I can say that neither will be particularly effective in this fight. Unless the James Gang mistakes Capone's boys for well dressed Union soldiers with automatic weapons (and they're not that stupid), their hatred of the North won't particularity make them fight any harder. Neither will the Outfit's code of silence.

Overall, I'm giving the slightest edge to the James-Younger Gang. The loyalty they have for each other gives them a stronger motivator for fighting then Capone's sense of power gives the Outfit. 

Edge: The James-Younger Gang

Combat History- Both gangs have a highly impressive combat history behind them. Capone carved out a huge criminal enterprise in Chicago, beating out rival gangs with greater organization and brutality. The James boys have roughly  two decades of fighting experience under their belt, ranging from raids on Union troops to robberies. The best quality opponents Capone's  men would have faced were fellow criminal organizations, like the North Side, which were very similarly armed and organized. Conflict with groups like these would have made them no stranger to tough fights. The J-Y gang would have gotten their best experience fighting in the Civil War, where they had success fighting against an enemy that was far larger, more organized and better equipped than they could ever hope to be. However I think that the quality of their enemy's really dropped after the war. I don't want to sound like I'm overly bashing the Pinkertons, but their pursuit of the Gang was crap to say the very least. Not to mention they got their asses handed to them by a few farmers during the Northfield Raid. That said, they still proved to be surprisingly tough, skilled and organized, and the money they made speaks for itself. 

Overall both gangs are used to "fighting dirty" so to speak, and both have an extremely high amount of experience behind them. While Capone fought a better quality of opponents, the J-Y has a greater number of years behind them. I'm declaring this one a tie

Edge: Even                       

Leadership- James and Capone are certainly two of the most iconic criminals in American history, but which is the better leader? The Outfit is certainly larger and more organized and complex than the J-Y Gang, and Capone proved to be a surprisingly skilled leader. In many ways he was a politician as well as a mobster, as charming and cunning as he was ruthless. He learned the best the best time to target threats to his organization. These traits however, would be more useful in a gang war then a squad-on-squad fight like this. Although Al probably did have a great deal of combat experience, I don't believe he would have been able to coordinate his gang in the middle of a firefight as well as Jesse would have. As far as loyalty of their gang members in concerned, I'd have to say that they're both equal. Jesse certainly proved himself a leader over more than a decade of robberies, while Capone had both the trust and the respect of his men, as he rose up through the same ranks that they did. Both of these men did have personality flaws though; Jesse could be reckless, and went a little crazy during his final years, while Capone was known for his unstable temper.

Overall my edge goes to Jesse. Although Capone may be the more cunning leader, I believe he may have spent too may years commanding from the sidelines, while Jesse commanded from the front for nearly all his career.

Edge: The James-Younger Gang



That took quite a bit longer than I thought it would, but now this fight is almost done. Only one thing remains, the battle itself...


But before you go, here's a short preview for my next fight:

The movies have given many iconic pshycos, people like Hannibal Lector, Freddy Kruger, and Michel Myers, but the two that are about to face off are in a league of their own.

VS

 Cold-blooded hit-man Anton Chigruh has never been shy about killing. But even he may have bitten off more than he can chew when he finds himself in the woods of Camp Crystal Lake, going up against the seemingly unstoppable killing machine known as Jason Voorhees. I hope someone brought a bucket, because there's gonna be a lot of blood to clean up ;)   

                               
                        



                

The Chicago Outfit

"You can get much farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a  kind word alone"

-Al Capone

Bio Undergoing Editing

                   

Weapons

Long Range- Thompson Submachine Gun

Caliber- .45 ACP

Range- 100-150 meters/ 328-492 ft

Weight- 4.9 kg/ 10.8 lbs

Length- 852 mm/ 33.5 in

Barrel Length - 267mm/ 10.5 in

Ammo Capacity- 50-100 round drum magazine

Rate of Fire- 700 rpm

Action- Semi-auto or Full Auto 

The most iconic gun of prohibition era crime, the "Tommygun" was a truly fearsome weapon, capable of literally tearing through its target. It was created by General John T. Thompson in the closing years of WWI. He had a vision of a one man, lightweight, machine gun that would provide its user with an devastating amount of firepower. Thompson created his submachine gun, using the "Blowback" system, which uses air pressure to blow the bolt reward, ejecting the round, and loading the next one. Thompson chose the system because of its simplicity and reliability, the same reasons the gun would become popular among mobsters. It had a compact design, which could easily fit into the inside of a a jacket, or as some criminals preferred, a violin case. Even with the compact size,  the Thompson packs a lot of firepower behind it. The Blowback mechanism meant that the gun could only accept .45 Colt semi-auto rounds, but this would give the gun excellent stopping power. It could tear easily through weak cover, and I think this may hurt the James gang's skirmishing tactics. Although army and marine issued Thompsons had twenty round box magazines, gangsters usually preferred the 50-100 drum magazines, which could empty their rounds in just a few seconds. The Thompson does have a few flaws however, many soldiers complained that the drum magazine made the gun bulky and heavy. It's not particularly accurate either, but then again, it doesn't have to be. Capone's boys would have been probably pretty skilled with the Thompson, using it in many gangland "hits". As long as they actually take the time to aim, and don't give in to "spraying and praying", the Thompson will do very well.

Mid Range- Colt M1911 Pistol

Caliber- .45  ACP 

Range- 25-50 meters/ 82-162 ft

Weight- 1.13 kg/ 2.5 lbs

Length- 216 mm/ 8.50 in

Barrel Length- 127 mm/ 5 in

Ammo Capacity- 7 rounds

Action- Semi-automatic
Considered by some to be the best semi-auto pistol ever made, the Colt M1911 was created by legendary gun designer John M. Browning, in response to the US military's need for a high powered pistol capable of replacing the outdated .38 revolver. It would see mass production during the first World War, where it preformed extremely well, but would over go many changes after the war, including a shorter trigger, wider hammer front sight, and better grips. This new model was designated the M1911A1, and would serve American forces in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam. Even today the gun still is incredibly popular, being used in the FBI's hostage rescue team, and many SWAT units. It's .45 rounds give it enough power to drop any target, while the gun in still has a simple and overall reliable design, and within its effective range (25-50 meters, although I have heard some say 100), it's extremely accurate. The only drawbacks is the pistol's large profile and weight, which hurts the users mobility and his ability to quickly change targets, and the gun's small, 7 shot magazine

(Old WWI Colt. Note that the Outfit would probably carry the slightly more advanced M911A1 model)

Short Range- Winchester 1897 Shotgun

Caliber- 12 Gauge

Range- 20 meters/ 66 ft

Weight- 3.6 kg/ 8 lbs 

Length- 1,000 mm/ 39.75 in

Barrel Length- 510 mm/ 20 in

Ammo Capacity- 6 rounds

Action- Pump Action

Another iconic Browning gun, the Winchester 1897 was the first truly successful pump action shotgun, replacing the earlier  lever action designs. It was actually modeled after the earlier 1893 pump action, but was far more successful, and truly replaced the lever action shotgun. The pump action design was far easier to use than a lever action; it actually stays on target between shots, and the pump action gives it a far greater rate of fire. The gun was highly mobile, and capable of operating well in tight, close combat situations, like the trenches of WWI. The firepower this gun was capable of putting out was so great, that the German army attempted to have this gun banned from use by American soldiers, for causing "unnecessary suffering to enemy combatants".

 

Special Weapon- Baseball Bat

Length-3 ft

Weight-2 lbs

Material- Maple or Ash Wood

Enough with this Bowie Knife vs. Stiletto crap, lets give the Bowie a real challenge. Any true crime aficionado knows the story of Capone beating some treacherous underlings to death (or at least near to death, it's said he shot them afterward) with a baseball bat. This may only be a gangland fable, but the baseball bat was a very common, and very brutal mob, hand to hand combat weapon. So why use a baseball bat? First off, its legal, so Capone's boys wouldn't have to worry about getting busted like they would for carrying around a Tommygun. The maple or ash wood  of the bat makes it surprisingly durable, and it's faster and less cumbersome than you may think.It's got a good length to it as well; its user can keep an enemy away with some simple strikes so he has room to wind-up for a devastating swing. Any when that swing hits its going to hurt, a lot. A good shot to the head, or neck has a high chance of killing, and even if it doesn't, its very unlikely whoever gets hit will be getting back up again. A hit to the arm, leg, or back also has a high chance of crippling. What worries me about this weapon though is that in order to get a solid strike in, you must have a good wind-up, which leaves you very open for a few seconds. Also it seems kind of cumbersome to drag around in a gunfight; as the person using it will only be able to carry the Colt with him, which will limit his overall effectiveness effectiveness during the fight.

Explosive Weapon- Mk.II Hand Grenade

.

Weight- 1 lb

Explosive Material- 2 oz of TNT

Blast Radius (Killing Range)- 16 ft/4.8 meters

Maximum Killing Radius (Fragmentation)- 50ft/ 15.24 meters  

The "Pineapple Bomb" from the show, the Mk.II, this was the official had grenade of the US military from the 20's to the 60's, and a man of Capone's money and resources would have easily been able to get his hands on this weapon. It got its nickname from the grooves on its sides, which were said to aid in fragmentation (although this is now considered false) and, give soldiers a good grip on the grenade. The grenade contains 2 oz of TNT, which compared to the dynamite that Jesse and gang will have, is much more stable. However it has less of a blast radius, but makes up for it with the grenade's deadly fragmentation, produced from its cast iron exterior. The fragmentation is what truly makes this grenade lethal, capable of sending shards far past the initial blast radius.

 

         

X-Factors/Intangibles

Tactics- The Outfit may have been a separate entity from the Sicilian Mafia, but they both shared a love for strong-arm, intimidation tactics. If the Outfit wanted something out of someone, they would usually resort to bribery first, but if someone refused, they better watch out, because Capone wasn't concerned with just taking what he wanted. Attacks on rival mobs, and other targets, weren't just brutal, hasty affairs (although they were very brutal), they were well planned, and well executed, often by the Outfit's most dangerous professionals. Most of all though, these attacks were designed to send a message, don't screw with Capone! Kidnapping and extortion were also were common tactics. It was this mix of firepower and fear that allowed the Outfit to become so powerful in the Chicago underworld. These tactics allowed the Outfit to rely just as much on the fear of violence, as the actual violence itself.     

Training- No professional training exists for the Outfit, they would pick up skills they needed as they rose through the ranks of Chicago's underworld. Starting off with with menial jobs as they made a reputation for themselves, they would learn how to extort, intimidate, and most importantly, how to kill. That's not to say that they should be considered unskilled, as Capone would probably had some very dangerous men with him, whether they were career Mob "soldiers" or hired guns. Even with their combat experience though, I'm not sure their discipline will be on the same level with the James-Younger Gang.

Morale/Motivation- Like most organized crime Capone expected his members to keep a code of silence and loyalty. The traditional code of silence and honor for the Sicilian Mafia is called the omerta. The code in a nutshell, basically states that you maintain loyalty to the "family"(in this case Capone), and will never betray them to any outsiders (in this case the police, or a rival mob). If you do betray them, you are considered a "rat", and your life is basically over. I'm not sure exactly what the code the Outfit followed is called, but I imagine it's very similar to what the Sicilian Mafia followed. Capone himself had a strong sense of both loyalty and honor, and any who disobeyed the code could expect a swift execution.

Combat History- Up until the height of his power, Capone's Outfit was often locked in constant gangland warfare with many other crime syndicates, most prominently the North Side. These gangs were as well armed and brutal as the Outfit, but Capone managed to beat them all. Even at the height of his power Capone still had to deal with increased pressure from law enforcement (most prominently Elliot Ness and his "Untouchables"). Ironic then, that the people to really take him down in the end were the office workers of the IRS Special Intelligence Unit.

The Untouchables, posing after a raid

Leadership- While rising up through the ranks of the Outfit, Capone earned the respect and trust of many of its members, giving them a strong sense of loyalty to him when he actually took control of the Outfit. They called him "The Big Fellow", appreciated Capone as the kind of boss they could joke around with, and also share a few laughs with. Yet Capone was known for his short temper, known to go off at the least amount of provocation. Although he could be cunning when he needed to be, he mostly relied on brute force tactics to bring the Outfit to power. Also, despite running a far larger and more complex gang than Jesse, Capone would not be used to leading them into combat like Jesse would.

 

                 

    (Two clips from the show Boardwalk Empire, showing both sides of Capone's personality, the fun loving jokester, and the short tempered brute.)

             

Well there you have it, both these gangs are locked and loaded, and only one will walk away from this rematch alive. Please let me know if I forgot anything for these two gangs, and feel free to give any edge predictions/overall predictions.